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AFK players ruin the game!

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iupli

Junior Member

02-04-2015

First of all, like i said before, if you dodge, you just encourage bullying in team select. That's just catastrophic. If you play the game you're just giving him the satisfaction.
You can't premade more than 2 people in ranked so out of 9 voters only 1 can be premade with the troll, and 1 is neglijable (also, who would want to premade with a troll like that?). If you want to try something new, like premade bot annie and leona i don't think there will be minute 1 dismissal, because they can't hurt or disturb anyone in early game. It costs noone anything to let them try for a few minutes.
Concerning the team select chat, it is irelevant. if you have a team comp of veigar rengar renekton and leona and the last guy picks zed and goes mid with veigar and leona ends up solo bot, he did not respect the pick order, this being grounds for dismissal. If he decides to go bot with zed and plays seriously, i do not believe the enemy team will vote to end the game. Although according to the meta he should have picked adc, there are other valid options. If botlane loses but he is trying hard, the vote between the 9 people may decide to end the game but not to also punish him with 30 min ban (you don't have to punish originality). However if he is trying hard and leona just refuses to help him "because he should have picked adc", i strongly believe that leona should be punished and the game dismissed (because it may not be the meta, but zed's pick doesn't change her role).


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Celebloth

Senior Member

02-04-2015

This is just getting way too complicated and confusing.

You have to pay attention ingame to so many other things, and adding this would be just too much, people would back out of games without trying. It is not impossible to win with 4 vs 5, or hell even with 3vs5 (done it)

What is needed more, is more time in the lobby, when everyone gets there and have time to discuss what I am good with and what not, regardless the pick order. Usually it works if you ask your team if you could go duo bot, because you are premade, I think from my 10 placement games last season, I have been only once with a random dude and not my duoQ partner. You can be surprised how cooperative the team can get if you start to talk in a normal manner.

Quote:
4.as the game starts, and he is mid with his teammate, the game pauses for 30 sec as the 9 other players vote, and after that, he recieves a message like "the majority of players in this game decided that you did not respect the pick order, therefore you are banned for 30 mins and this game will count as a lose." -> this will be absolutely no fun


I would not want to punish anyone directly like that just for one game. That is not a good option I think. Do you know how much it could be abused??

And there is no random stranger in the Tribunal, for it has been down over a year, and Riot has always been handing out the punishments themselves. And the Riot said itself to be harsher than the votes from the tribunal till it worked.


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xXInSaNeMaNXx

Junior Member

02-04-2015

I got a question where can I post a question to RIOT...they restricted my queue on 20mins waiting before i can play because for no reason....the people just report me probably for AFK because of fun, i wasnt AFK too much games but I was two days ago and it's because of you RIOT, mt internet was perfect and fast but i still had 700 ping and couldn't move so i reconnected and it was still 700, and so i logged off and logged in again and guess what, my game was updating 10 mins so i failed to play, anyway i was playing dominion that day so its enough 10 mins to finish that kind of game, please tell me where can I send this so they do something about this, really it's ****ty and not fair to wait 20mins before game because of not staying AFK...


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Celebloth

Senior Member

02-04-2015

Quote:
xXInSaNeMaNXx:
I got a question where can I post a question to RIOT...they restricted my queue on 20mins waiting before i can play because for no reason....the people just report me probably for AFK because of fun, i wasnt AFK too much games but I was two days ago and it's because of you RIOT, mt internet was perfect and fast but i still had 700 ping and couldn't move so i reconnected and it was still 700, and so i logged off and logged in again and guess what, my game was updating 10 mins so i failed to play, anyway i was playing dominion that day so its enough 10 mins to finish that kind of game, please tell me where can I send this so they do something about this, really it's ****ty and not fair to wait 20mins before game because of not staying AFK...


You can send a ticket to support, top right corner.
The new afk detector notices the "not too many games being afk". And as far as I know 20 minutes are the longest punishment you can get in low priority queue. So it was not just because that game you have mentioned here.


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iupli

Junior Member

02-04-2015

Quote:
Celebloth:

You have to pay attention ingame to so many other things, and adding this would be just too much, people would back out of games without trying. It is not impossible to win with 4 vs 5, or hell even with 3vs5 (done it)


Adding what? The possibility to pause the game early for a vote against a disruptive player? It's not like it's for minute 35 and someone is about to smite the baron and the pause messes it up. Wining is not everything. Having fun is. Game not fun -> let me end it if everyone concerned agrees.

Quote:
Celebloth:
What is needed more, is more time in the lobby, when everyone gets there and have time to discuss what I am good with and what not, regardless the pick order. Usually it works if you ask your team if you could go duo bot, because you are premade, I think from my 10 placement games last season, I have been only once with a random dude and not my duoQ partner. You can be surprised how cooperative the team can get if you start to talk in a normal manner.


When lastpick says mid or troll and you want mid, you have these options:
1. Allow him to bully you into a role you can't really fill -> not fun, not fair
2. Go mid and get trolled by him
3. Dodge, hoping the next team will not have a troll in it (wishfull thinking), and also, congrats, you encouraged him to keep saying mid or troll
4. Enter the game, lose lp like a dodge, ban the troll for 30 mins and rejoin the queue immediately.

Seriously what would you pick?


Quote:
Celebloth:
I would not want to punish anyone directly like that just for one game. That is not a good option I think. Do you know how much it could be abused??


Punish anyone like that for one game. Why not? It's 30 minutes not a lifetime. Isn't ruining a game on purpose enough to get punished?
I really would like you to explain how exactly can this be abused. Everyone says it can be abused but noone clarifyes it. Can you?


Quote:
Celebloth:
And there is no random stranger in the Tribunal, for it has been down over a year, and Riot has always been handing out the punishments themselves. And the Riot said itself to be harsher than the votes from the tribunal till it worked.


Riot is made of people. It is not automatic (i hope, because machines can be so easily circumvented). Because riot is made of people, those people manage the punishments. And there you go -> random stranger that knows ~ nothing of what happend ingame assigning blame.


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xXInSaNeMaNXx

Junior Member

02-04-2015

Quote:
Celebloth:
You can send a ticket to support, top right corner.
The new afk detector notices the "not too many games being afk". And as far as I know 20 minutes are the longest punishment you can get in low priority queue. So it was not just because that game you have mentioned here.


Thank you much, I really dont know why i get 20 mins im not flaming not negative just playing to win, theres probably people reporting for fun ..


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Celebloth

Senior Member

02-04-2015

Adding this system that you have mentioned.

I don't think I remember having a game with a "mid or feed" guy. But that's basically because I really dislike going alone, douQ is better, but my preference is a full team.
Once someone wanted my support, I let him have it, cos I really dislike conflicts, and hoped I could avoid it that way, and he flamed nevertheless, lost that game, reported him.
But if someone is clearly wants to troll, and you can't make him do otherwise, I would dodge it.

So you mean the random strangers are the Riot Employees, who have been studying, and have degrees in fields of social science, psychology and so on. Yeah, they have more experience on how people behave than I do. What I can do is, decide what is acceptable for me and what is not, and then they decide how severe the punishment should be.

While the Tribunal was still up, honestly, it was pretty easy to decide punishment or pardon without knowing what has been going on in the game, because, the chat was more than enough. Of course there were games where you had to decide if the guy was intentionally feeding or trolling or what so ever, those were the harder cases.

As for the how to abuse it, what if everything was fine in the lobby, and the game starts fine, but someone is having a hard time in the lane, and you call him a troll or what so ever, and then make a vote to end this game and punish him.
Here you would take away the chance from the whole team from winning the game. You can't know if it was unturnable or not.
What I am trying to point out, that yes, you can have a real troll in champ select, which has to be dealt with. If you have such a system implemented it can be used for other things, which I mentioned above.

Also if you dodge the game, you lose less LP than playing the game through, so I don't see the point going into the game just to report someone. That's why a report option could be good in the lobby and then dodge. And then the report would be evaluated.


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Celebloth

Senior Member

02-04-2015

Quote:
xXInSaNeMaNXx:
Thank you much, I really dont know why i get 20 mins im not flaming not negative just playing to win, theres probably people reporting for fun ..


The AFK detector works without reports. The low priority queue is different punishment than the chat restrictions which you get for flaming or being negative.


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Adrenalotr

Senior Member

02-04-2015

Quote:
iupli:
In this case dismissed means you surrender just as the game starts or extremely early, you lose LP just as much as any other game and the enemy team will also win LP like any other win. I believe that the collective you played with should be able to punish you, not some random stranger in the tribunal who can't see your plays, only your chat. You may think this will be abused, but it won't. The enemyes won't just punish one of your teammembers for no reason.


I don't know if you've noticed, but last year Riot implemented a brand new Match History that includes your kills and deaths, your actions in shop, and a lot o other data. I expect this would make it into the Tribunal, when it comes back. That means there's a lot more data to base a decision on than just the chat, cs, KDA and final build.

Not only does the random stranger have all that information, but they also gain or lose nothing from the vote. They don't gain or lose LP, and as such are able to be objective. This is how juries work, and it's a good system. It's not without flaws, but it's much harder to abuse than a system where only the players involved in the game get to decide.

Quote:
To answer you previous statement concerning prventing trolling, i ask you this: why do you think people don't kill each other left and right? Is it because killing is wrong? Because of education? Or is it because if you kill someone you will probably get caught and go to prison? If you create a system in which not respecting the rules allmost everytime gets you punished, the law will be respected. In my system, when a troll will not respect the pick order, the overall outcome of his action will be
1.sat down in front of the computer -> no fun yet, but expectations for fun
2.argued on chat he is mid or troll -> no fun yet, but he can't wait to outfarm the other midder / bully him into leaving mid
3.wait for the game to start (loading) -> this is no fun
4.as the game starts, and he is mid with his teammate, the game pauses for 30 sec as the 9 other players vote, and after that, he recieves a message like "the majority of players in this game decided that you did not respect the pick order, therefore you are banned for 30 mins and this game will count as a lose." -> this will be absolutely no fun

Overall -> 10 minutes spent arguing, expecting to have fun and no fun, +30 minutes to do what? would you do this again?


Overly dramatic comparisons don't help. Besides, people kill each other all the time. It's murder, war, or terrorism. And they do it despite there being punishments and costs involved. If you point is that people don't kill their neighbors because they'd go to prison for it, I think it's about that they have nothing to gain from killing their neighbors.

The problem with your system is that if theres a problem at stage 2, it should be solved at stage 2, not go through stage 3 and 4. And once it reaches stage 4, you're essentially asking the enemy team to forego having fun and just vote to end the game. What if they want to have fun stomping a team that can't work together? What if they don't want to go back to queue, champ select and loading screen?

If the problem is in champ select, it should be solved in champ select, not drag people into the game and rely on the enemy team to solve the problem for them. Consider the amount of time wasted on finishing champ select and loading the game. Not everyone has a fast computer.

So no, your system is needlessly complicated and thus bad. The champ select votekick suggestion that gets repeated a lot is abusable, but at least it doesn't drag people into the game and wastes more of the players' time.

Quote:
Btw, the main problem with the tribunal is that the troll cannot mentally make a connection between his actions and his punishments.


This I completely agree with, which is why I'm happy to see Riot implementing much shorter delays in punishing players for leaving.

Although one could argue that the main problem with the tribunal right now is that it's not available.

--

Quote:
iupli:
Concerning the team select chat, it is irelevant. if you have a team comp of veigar rengar renekton and leona and the last guy picks zed and goes mid with veigar and leona ends up solo bot, he did not respect the pick order, this being grounds for dismissal. If he decides to go bot with zed and plays seriously, i do not believe the enemy team will vote to end the game. Although according to the meta he should have picked adc, there are other valid options. If botlane loses but he is trying hard, the vote between the 9 people may decide to end the game but not to also punish him with 30 min ban (you don't have to punish originality). However if he is trying hard and leona just refuses to help him "because he should have picked adc", i strongly believe that leona should be punished and the game dismissed (because it may not be the meta, but zed's pick doesn't change her role).


If your system can punish either Zed and Leona, the system is abusable. If it can't decide which player to punish, it's not advanced enough. This is the problem with your system so far - it addresses a symptom of the problem, but not the problem itself, and the problem is in champ select, and the problem is the "mid or troll"-like obstinate players, the bullies. Your system doesn't really help players avoid that, it only causes a lot of unnecessary delays and losses for the other players.

Quote:
First of all, like i said before, if you dodge, you just encourage bullying in team select. That's just catastrophic. If you play the game you're just giving him the satisfaction.


The satisfaction? No, what you're giving him is a new position in pick order, possibly first or second pick, which rewards his behavior. I completely agree that this is where the problem lies.

Dodges exist so that players can avoid a toxic situation. Riot should just punish the players that cause the dodges. If they would do that, players would know that:

1) Champ Select is logged, and Riot can use that as evidence when they punish players misbehaving, eg by bullying or being abusive in chat, or by not respecting pick order

2) players can be punished for bad behavior in Champ Select, thus reducing bad behavior there

That's the solution to the problem of bullies and obstinate players.

Early surrenders is a solution to a different problem, namely players not connecting due to technical issues.

Quote:
When lastpick says mid or troll and you want mid, you have these options:
1. Allow him to bully you into a role you can't really fill -> not fun, not fair
2. Go mid and get trolled by him
3. Dodge, hoping the next team will not have a troll in it (wishfull thinking), and also, congrats, you encouraged him to keep saying mid or troll
4. Enter the game, lose lp like a dodge, ban the troll for 30 mins and rejoin the queue immediately.

Seriously what would you pick?


There's something familiar about this question (http://forums.eune.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=685396). maybe someone has been thinking about this problem before.


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iupli

Junior Member

02-06-2015

There's something familiar about this question (http://forums.eune.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=685396). maybe someone has been thinking about this problem before.[/QUOTE]

You are making my point (or rather i am making yours :P). It's the same analisys of the situation only more elaborated.

I would like to submit this comparison to you. I feel that LoL is almost identical to a random real-life sport (like socker or basketball) with strangers as your teammates and opponents. You must cooperate with your teammates, try to synergyse your abilityes, trust each other etc. What never happends in outdoor sports is trolling. Because if you don't want to play for real both the teams will tell you to get off the court (or field or whatever u call it). Outdoor sports are extrmely abusive in their selection (a problem riot fixed very well, respect), but once the team is made up, noone is trolling. Because trolling will get you nowhere. It would be like trying to rob a police officer. If you try to hurt the game you are OUT. Give the victims of trolling the chanse to retaliate.

Concerning the abuse of the right to retaliate, that wouldn't happen (or at least it would be a lesser evil). I feel that i have to elaborate my "in-game tribunal" idea. Here it is:
After the game starts, in the general team stats window, along with the mute button, there should be a "report inapropriate behavior button" for every player in YOUR team. You may click that button at any time, not more often than once every 5 mins, and not more that 2 times / player (this is flexible). Clicking the button will start a "is player X(champion) having inadequate behavior?" vote (like on surrender, discrete, not disturbing the game). If 3 of 5 or 3 of 4 agree, the game will pause for 30 secs or so (to prevent rushing into voting due to adrenaline), and all nine players will submit to a vote. If 6 (the majority from both teams) say YES, the vote passes.
1. Vote passes = the game will end, the team with the troll will lose the game (standard lose penaltyes), and the troll gets 30 minute ban (i think every player who says yes should say how long the ban should last rangeing from 5 to 60 mins and the actual punishment should be the AVERAGE).
2. Vote rejected = game continues. In my oppinion it would be fair to give the team that decided they have a troll a standard surrender possibility (not on minute 20 but at any time, so they won't build rage for the forecoming games). (Pass = standard surrender, lose LP, no bans; Fail = agony).

The abuse of the in-game tribunal won't happen because, unlike real-life sports, people don't know each other. Every one of them will think for himself. The ipothetical premade with the troll (but srsly who would like to premade with him) will not be enough to "crash" this system.

If you think the system i proposed can be abused, check this out:
I was on a losing streak with trolls / afks (and i was duoing with my cousin). Finally we had a game in which we had a nonafk nontroll team, but facing a 4-man team. I was feeling down because i want to play good 5v5 games, do plays, get in those adrenaline-rushing fights, and then my cousin says something like "finally it's our turn to get the full team". This made me sad. He is unexperienced and hadn't played very much, he was barely lvl 30, and this is what his idea of LOL is. Get the "lucky draw".