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Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

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20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-10-2013

The ultimate turret is temporary, and will be gone by the time the cooldown comes back. On the upside, it doesn't count against the 3 turret max ^^

Heading home now, but I'll be watching this thread for the duration. Thanks for your comments!


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LIGHTKNIGHT6

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Well. After being dissapointed by the Karma rework (she was one of my mains before it, I've barely touched her since), I was quite scared for Heimer. I have to say though, it feels great. Really great.

The one thing I'll miss is having my turrets up all over the map. Oh, and jungle Heimer seems a tad weaker than before (when two lvl5 rockets could solo any camp). But you've got to have some drawbacks, right?

The new rockets seem weird, and I like that. It was fun poking like crazy with the old ones, but these are promising too. E is better imo, and as for Q... three turrets! Yay

The ultimate feels good, though I have to say I'd like something more impressive (visually) on the upgraded turret. It's a shame that the most visually (and audibly) epic upgrade, the one of the grenade, will probably be the least used.

I have to say, I had my doubts about this rework. Until I saw my four turrets pummeling Dragon away. (Please, please, PLEASE don't take away the ability to have four turrets out at once...)

Overall, great job! Keep it up guys ^_^


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Thrashling

Junior Member

10-11-2013

Played a few games, and I have some notes that I think are worth considering.

Turrets - I think their redesign is great, but the main problem with the turrets has always been a good player can kill your turrets easily, destroying your long term damage. I would love to see turret health based on Heimerdinger's level, and a percent of his bonus HP. This would open up build paths for heimer to make his turrets more durable and make himself a very good siege champion. I do think the timers are a bit long without the built in CDR of his ult.

I do think having three available from the first skill up (over time) is a good move. It opens up a lot of much tougher choices than before, which is good as it allows for skill and knowledge to play an important roll.

New Rockets are great as far execution, but I think moving the extra rocket damage to 25% so that if you get hit with all 5 you take effectively 2 single rockets worth of damage would make it a more desired effect to target an individual with the rocket as opposed to a group or a wave. I will say I think the initial spread of the rockets could be a little bit wider. Curving the paths a bit on the outer ones could also look cool and give some counter play on positioning to avoid getting hit by all 5 rockets.

New Grenade - I will say that without the blind, keeping turrets alive is a bit harder, see above for ideas on that. As far as the grenade itself goes, I like it quite a bit. It gets the job done, and requires skill and gives room for avoiding it. An idea I have is an additional debuff - concussed - where if someone is stunned by the grenade, they take extra damage from heimer for the duration. It would make landing the grenade a much bigger deal that just a stun or slow. See also, Ahri Charm changes.

Now for the Ult - Over all great, but the most important change I would suggest would be an instant refresh of all other cool downs or if the ult is not used for 5 seconds it reverts and does a 5 second cool down. This way, if I hit R, I am not forced to to use the ult but can cancel it, like a few other champions.

I think the Ult Turret needs to stick around a bit longer, currently its timer is quite short if a protracted team fight is going to happen.

ult rockets, I would entertain the idea of having 3 individual casts in a window of time so the player can place them more effectively. If not, I still like it a lot.

Ult Granade - instead of having one grenade that bounces, I think experimenting with a cluster of 3 or so might also be interesting. Again, I still like it a lot if not.

Just to reiterate, I think the most important bit here would be a way to make his turrets a bit more durable, like a bonus based on heimer's bonus health.


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Nosdormou

Junior Member

10-11-2013

I don't have access to the PBE but I've seen videos around on Heimer rework.I liked the new skills seems more intresting than before.Only thing I have to say the turret seemed kinda extremly big when casted with R.Other than that the rest skills seemed fine.Good work

I am just worried the power he is given.Some spell vamp some slow and deathfire grasp and the enemy will be down in no time if he take full cast of R+W and 3 turrets !!!


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LIGHTKNIGHT6

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Thrashling:
Played a few games, and I have some notes that I think are worth considering.

Turrets - I think their redesign is great, but the main problem with the turrets has always been a good player can kill your turrets easily, destroying your long term damage. I would love to see turret health based on Heimerdinger's level, and a percent of his bonus HP. This would open up build paths for heimer to make his turrets more durable and make himself a very good siege champion. I do think the timers are a bit long without the built in CDR of his ult.

I do think having three available from the first skill up (over time) is a good move. It opens up a lot of much tougher choices than before, which is good as it allows for skill and knowledge to play an important roll.

New Rockets are great as far execution, but I think moving the extra rocket damage to 25% so that if you get hit with all 5 you take effectively 2 single rockets worth of damage would make it a more desired effect to target an individual with the rocket as opposed to a group or a wave. I will say I think the initial spread of the rockets could be a little bit wider. Curving the paths a bit on the outer ones could also look cool and give some counter play on positioning to avoid getting hit by all 5 rockets.

New Grenade - I will say that without the blind, keeping turrets alive is a bit harder, see above for ideas on that. As far as the grenade itself goes, I like it quite a bit. It gets the job done, and requires skill and gives room for avoiding it. An idea I have is an additional debuff - concussed - where if someone is stunned by the grenade, they take extra damage from heimer for the duration. It would make landing the grenade a much bigger deal that just a stun or slow. See also, Ahri Charm changes.

Now for the Ult - Over all great, but the most important change I would suggest would be an instant refresh of all other cool downs or if the ult is not used for 5 seconds it reverts and does a 5 second cool down. This way, if I hit R, I am not forced to to use the ult but can cancel it, like a few other champions.

I think the Ult Turret needs to stick around a bit longer, currently its timer is quite short if a protracted team fight is going to happen.

ult rockets, I would entertain the idea of having 3 individual casts in a window of time so the player can place them more effectively. If not, I still like it a lot.

Ult Granade - instead of having one grenade that bounces, I think experimenting with a cluster of 3 or so might also be interesting. Again, I still like it a lot if not.

Just to reiterate, I think the most important bit here would be a way to make his turrets a bit more durable, like a bonus based on heimer's bonus health.


Quite good insight, much deeper than mine. I have to agree with the CDR issue, but it's just a nuisance, not really serious. I would agree with the bonus health on the turrets, and, as for the Ulti, it's already cancelable. You just reactivate it to cancel it.


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20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-11-2013

Quote:
LIGHTKNIGHT6:
I have to say, I had my doubts about this rework. Until I saw my four turrets pummeling Dragon away. (Please, please, PLEASE don't take away the ability to have four turrets out at once...)

Overall, great job! Keep it up guys ^_^


Thanks for the kind words! And definitely, 4 turrets is here to stay if I have anything to say about it xD

Quote:
Thrashling:
Turrets - I think their redesign is great, but the main problem with the turrets has always been a good player can kill your turrets easily, destroying your long term damage.


There's a bug with this right now, actually. Turrets are supposed to get resists based on Heimerdinger's champion level, so once that fix is in, this should be significantly better ^^


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Thrashling

Junior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:

There's a bug with this right now, actually. Turrets are supposed to get resists based on Heimerdinger's champion level, so once that fix is in, this should be significantly better ^^


Well, that is good to hear. I will say that killing heimers turrets has always been his big weakness, as he does not have super burst up front. This rework has helped quite a bit with the Ult Rockets, but heimer has to have his turrets up to do well. I know that it shouldn't be impossible to destroy his turrets, but I also think it shouldn't be a no brainer decision to target the turrets over heimer himself, first, because you know once the turrets are down his damage is gone. I understand it will be a delicate balance on where turret durability lies on that front, but I think it is the most crucial part of getting any rework to do well.

Thanks for letting me know there is a currently a bug though, that will calm my main fear I was having. Cheers


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Upir Lihi

Senior Member

10-11-2013

Will there be a classic skin for those who had Heimer before the rework? Same question for Xerath and Sivir


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SupremeNexus

Recruiter

10-11-2013

Quote:
20thCenturyFaux:
I put the answer to your question in the first post :3


OMG I am famous now!

Hi mom


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Sherool

Senior Member

10-12-2013

Haven't red everything yet but here are my first impression so far. Frankly Heimer felt a little weaker to me, but only played one game so far so most likely just haven't adjusted to the very different playstyle (and I built weird items to see if spell-vamp and such where viable (it's not).

Turrets:

Seem a lot more fragile now, a lot weaker at for example clearing jungle camps, even at level 18 a single turret can't take down the wraith camp before dying if you let it tank them, a little disappointing. Also towers take it down to 1/4 health in one hit so they are even more useless against buildings (don't even attack inhibs).

Turrets no longer shred armor/mr and there is no attack speed boost upon summoning them (so no reason at all to get close to enemies to place them now), even the laser takes a while to charge up so ideally you want to set up turrets before a fight, but that's unlikely to happen. Overall turrets are even less useful in team-fights now (die faster, no initial dps spike when summoned and the special attacks takes a while to charge, by which time the fight is probably over or moved to a different location, assuming the turret is even still alive). Also the ult doesn't boost existing turrets, it just allow you to summon a temporary "super turret" for free (gives you a total of 4 potentially) and only this new turret has a slow effect. So no more kiting though a wall if ice turrets to escape people.

Turrets no longer die when Heimer dies though, which is nice, but they shut down as if you left the area after a few seconds, still possible to get a revenge kill though.

Deactivated turrets still give a tiny bit of vision, but they won't be a substitute for wards anymore unless you can stay close enough to keep them powered on.

Turrets still don't proc item effects (not even butcher it seems).

Missiles:

Takes some getting used to, have to admit part of why I liked Heimer was the auto-target no cast time rocket spam. Now it's a multi vector skill-shot with a noticeable cast time (you stop moving when you cast it, so careful about using it when running away). I rely don't like the cast time, Heimer is slow to begin with having him stop to cast the spell is anoying me a bit.

Landing multiple hits on enemy champions are fairly satisfying, but it's a lot trickier to use it for last-hitting multiple creeps, the time it takes to line up the shot to hit just right the creeps have probably died. Again probably just a matter of practice, but quite a big adjustment.

The ult missile spam is hilariously funny though, land a full missile barrage in someones face and they melt pretty well.

Grenade:

This have been improved a LOT, it's a lot faster and easier to hit with now, and the ult version is pretty ridiculous in team-fights now if you can get multiple bounces on a group of enemies.

Ultimate:

Lots of changes here, no free CDR anymore, need to adjust builds to account for that. A little sad that it only affect the next ability cast now instead of any ability cast within X seconds. So you have to choose between a temporary turret with slow, a missile barrage, or the bouncy super grenade, you can only use one in a fight. Cooldown seem a little high for what it does too, but I didn't build much CDR in my test game.


Overall I'd say they have succeeded in raising the skill-cap at least (and I'm still a bit too set in the old play style).